Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT_ZIP/spacedig/V09_3/V9_392.ZIP/V9_392

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Subject: SPACE Digest V9 #392

SPACE Digest                                      Volume 9 : Issue 392

Today's Topics:
              Re: NASA tank reuse fiasco
               Re: Soviet Launch Sites
      Re: Deadline set for next astronaut selection (Forwarded)
             Re: failures and engineering
         Re: US citizen - ET contact legal penalties
    Re: URGENT -- SPACE STATION FUNDING VOTE ON TUESDAY!!
              manned spaceflight funding
          Re: Conte's Bill (was NSS update)
              Re: NASA tank reuse fiasco
               Re: Shuttle Acceleration
              NASA-Marshall node
        Re: Proposed lunar simulation facility
         Re: Close encounter with an asteroid
         Re: Close encounter with an asteroid
            U4MIR, U5MIR Contacts
               Asteroid Nearby
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 89 21:50:38 GMT
From: uflorida!mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo![e-mail]  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: NASA tank reuse fiasco

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Hosgood) writes:
>I used to wonder if it would be possible to redesign the ET so that:
>
>1) They could be taken to orbit

They can be already; it simply costs something.

>2) The end caps could be removed
>3) The internal pressure vessels could be removed.

There are no end caps or "internal pressure vessels"; an External Tank
is a LOX tank and an LH2 tank joined together and coated with ablative
insulation.  There is no separate outer skin, unless you count the short
ring that joins the two tanks.
--
Mars in 1980s:  USSR, 2 tries, |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
2 failures; USA, 0 tries.      | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 89 21:53:36 GMT
From: mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo![e-mail]  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Soviet Launch Sites

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bj|rn Fahller TT/MLG) writes:
>>The other major Soviet launch site is Plesetsk; the traffic is split
>>about 50-50.  Plesetsk is primarily military and has been very highly
>>secret until quite recently.
>
>Secret until how recently? In northern Sweden, where I come from, Rocket
>launces from the Pletetsk base (Not more than 300kms from the Swedish border),
>have been seen at night time for quite a few years now.

It's been known in the West for a long time.  But the Soviets have not
officially admitted its existence until recently, and it has been very
strictly off-limits to Westerners.
--
Mars in 1980s:  USSR, 2 tries, |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
2 failures; USA, 0 tries.      | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 89 21:39:33 GMT
From: uflorida!mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo![e-mail]  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Deadline set for next astronaut selection (Forwarded)

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter E. Yee) writes:
>     NASA will continue to accept and review applications from
>the general public on an ongoing basis...

Note that, looking at who got picked in the last few years, the odds of
getting selected are minimal unless you work for NASA.
--
Mars in 1980s:  USSR, 2 tries, |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
2 failures; USA, 0 tries.      | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 89 21:44:02 GMT
From: uflorida!mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo![e-mail]  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: failures and engineering

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stuart Warmink) writes:
>OK, so things do break - but with careful analysis and/or use of back-up
>systems, Mariner 2 and Voyager 2 were (and are) highly succesful missions.

Very true.  But one should keep a sense of perspective:  those missions
had a certain amount of luck as well.  I've observed before that a failure
in such a mission is "just one of those things you have to expect", while
a success is "a magnificent triumph demonstrating how well this approach
works".

>I'd say that on the whole NASA has had more first time successes than
>the Soviets, especially in the field of planetary exploration. This must
>say something for JPL's and contractors' designs.

Yes, this is clearly true.  Don't mistake me; NASA and ESA undoubtedly
build very good spacecraft as a result of the effort to get everything
right the first time.  But "very good" is not "perfect".
--
Mars in 1980s:  USSR, 2 tries, |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
2 failures; USA, 0 tries.      | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 89 21:56:05 GMT
From: mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo![e-mail]  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: US citizen - ET contact legal penalties

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>... I remember a reporter or two managing to get themselves
>'contaminated', and ending up locked up with the astronauts in
>quarantine for the duration.  (I wonder if the reporter did that
>deliberately...)  ...

I hadn't heard about that one, but at least one geologist got "contaminated"
accidentally and found that it ended up being a heaven-sent opportunity to
debrief the astronauts at length -- something that was otherwise almost
impossible, since NASA gave it a low priority.
--
Mars in 1980s:  USSR, 2 tries, |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
2 failures; USA, 0 tries.      | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 89 09:01:52 GMT
From: indri!polyslo![e-mail]  (John McKernan)
Subject: Re: URGENT -- SPACE STATION FUNDING VOTE ON TUESDAY!!

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Henry Spencer) writes:
>This is tautological.  Government is the only current source of the amount
>of money needed to build large-scale space hardware THE GOVERNMENT WAY.
>Of course, if you ask the government, they will assure you that it's the
>only way.  Even though doing the same things privately costs an order of
>magnitude less.

Government is the only current source of funds for a manned space effort
regardless of which WAY it is done (excluding repitions of things that have
already been done, such as simply putting a man up for a few orbits. It might
be exciting if a private company did that, but it would not advance knowledge
in manned space). This also applies to unmanned deep space research.

John L. McKernan.                    Student, Computer Science, Cal Poly S.L.O.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The future is rude and pushy. It won't wait for us to solve today's problems
before it butts in with tomorrow's.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 89 22:16:49 GMT
From: mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo![e-mail]  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: manned spaceflight funding

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John McKernan) writes:
>>This is tautological.  Government is the only current source of the amount
>>of money needed to build large-scale space hardware THE GOVERNMENT WAY...
>
>Government is the only current source of funds for a manned space effort
>regardless of which WAY it is done (excluding repitions of things that have
>already been done, such as simply putting a man up for a few orbits. It might
>be exciting if a private company did that, but it would not advance knowledge
>in manned space)...

If you insist on excluding everything that has been done already, you've
excluded space stations (of which there have been half a dozen already),
trips to the Moon, long-duration stays in space, etc etc... many of which
promise to provide useful new knowledge.

There is considerable precedent, in other areas, for private funding of
science and exploration.  Roald Amundsen had no government funding for
his trip to the South Pole.  Fleischmann and Pons had no government funding
for their cold-fusion research.  [Please refer arguments about whether the
results are real or not to alt.fusion.]  Bednorz and Muller had no
government funding for their Nobel-Prize-winning work on superconductors.
The Voyager round-the-world flight was privately funded.  Several current
projects for big astronomical telescopes are privately funded.

For that matter, there was no shortage of private interest in funding
space shuttle orbiters, including at least two companies which clearly had
the financial resources for it.
--
Mars in 1980s:  USSR, 2 tries, |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
2 failures; USA, 0 tries.      | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 89 15:43:04 GMT
From: mcvax!ukc!etive![e-mail]  (Bob Gray)
Subject: Re: Conte's Bill (was NSS update)

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Taylor) writes:
>    Just out of curosity, has anyone noticed a correlation between
>left/right political leanings and support of space and science? Or is it
>just random?

In this country, the UK, None whatsoever.

The excuses made by an extreme left wing member of the
Labour Governemt of the early 1970s when cancelling
various British space projects of the day, Mr Anthony
Wedgewood Benn, are EXACTLY the same as a member of Mrs T's
Government when extracting the last drop of financial
blood from the dismembered remains of British space research.
    Bob.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 89 02:46:43 GMT
From: yalevm![e-mail]
Subject: Re: NASA tank reuse fiasco

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Steve Hosgood) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Henry Spencer) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (andrew) writes:
>>>I was horrified to read that more than $8B has already been junked by
>>>discarded fuel tanks; about $300M per tank...

Whoa! Is this right?  I didn't see the original posting, but $300M seems
waaaay too high.  Anyone have a published reference for this figure?

                                          Greg

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 89 21:59:57 GMT
From: mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo![e-mail]  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Shuttle Acceleration

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Taylor) writes:
>>There are tradeoffs here.  Higher acceleration is generally more efficient,
>>as you spend less time fighting gravity.
>
>    Less time fighting gravity? I can't see what time has to do with it.

Remember that slow, ponderous rise of the Saturn V off the pad?  Well, of
those 7.5 million pounds of thrust, 6+ were doing nothing but holding the
thing up against gravity.  Only the remaining 1.5- were accelerating the
rocket upwards.  That's an expensive way to gain velocity, which is one of
the reasons why the shuttle takes off rather more briskly.
--
Mars in 1980s:  USSR, 2 tries, |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
2 failures; USA, 0 tries.      | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 89 17:48:40 GMT
From: phoenix![e-mail]  (Keith P. Mancus)
Subject: NASA-Marshall node


    Could someone tell me what the node name of MSFC (Marshall
Space Flight Center) is?  In fact, could someone state
the general pattern of the nasa.gov.whatever nodenames?

    Note to Ken Jenks:  I lost track of your new address.
Thanks for the 'space jobs' posting; it was an enormous help.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
-Keith Mancus <[e-mail]>  <- preferred
              <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 89 21:44:55 GMT
From: uflorida!mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo![e-mail]  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Proposed lunar simulation facility

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Roberts) writes:
>>Los Alamos proposes to build a lunar-surface simulation facility for
>>testing lunar mining and construction hardware...
>
>Is that a computer simulation testbed, or an actual physical construction
>to emulate the lunar terrain?

The latter, complete with vacuum chamber etc.
--
Mars in 1980s:  USSR, 2 tries, |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
2 failures; USA, 0 tries.      | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 89 21:10:33 GMT
From: [e-mail]  (Eugene Miya)
Subject: Re: Close encounter with an asteroid

Next time we should paint a giant Bull's eye somewhere facing up.
Planetary science in action. ;)

Longish signature follows "Type 'n' now"

Another gross generalization from

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, [e-mail]
  resident cynic at the Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers:
  "You trust the `reply' command with all those different mailers out there?"
  "If my mail does not reach you, please accept my apology."
  {ncar,decwrl,hplabs,uunet}!ames!eugene
                  Live free or die.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 89 21:37:40 GMT
From: [e-mail]  (RAMontante)
Subject: Re: Close encounter with an asteroid

[e-mail] (Eugene Miya) <[e-mail]> :
> Next time we should paint a giant Bull's eye somewhere facing up.
> Planetary science in action. ;)

Trust someone who likes living on fault lines to suggest this!

> Longish signature follows "Type 'n' now"

Well, at least you didn't put your targeting coordinates in your signature,
like some people.


Remember that Peter Benchley always kept his umbrella fully deployed, to
prevent being struck by asteroids.  Claimed a 100% success rate, too....

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 89 02:00:17 GMT
From: w3vh![e-mail]  (Rolfe Tessem)
Subject: U4MIR, U5MIR Contacts


Well, just as the Mir cosmonauts are closing up shop, I managed to
finally work both the current crew (I think).  On 4/16 at 13:58 GMT I
worked U5MIR almost by accident -- I just happened to be in the shack
with the radio tuned to 145.550, and today (4/23) I worked U4MIR at
almost the same time -- 14:51 GMT.  I assume that these callsigns
represent each member of the crew, respectively.  The cosmonaut signing
U4MIR spoke decidedly better english, but neither was much for chitchat :-).

I believe I did understand that they were closing down operations until
August.  Is that the general understanding?

Does anyone have the names of the current crew handy?

--
UUCP:         uunet!w3vh!rolfe             | Rolfe Tessem
INTERNET:     [e-mail]            | P.O. Box 793
AMPRNET:      [e-mail] [44.44.0.2]| Great Barrington, MA 01230
PACKET RADIO: w3vh@wa2pvv             | [phone]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 89 06:51:33 GMT
From: cfa!cfa250![e-mail]  (Steve Willner P-316 x57123)
Subject: Asteroid Nearby

[Following is the text of a NASA press release.  Apologies if someone
else posts the same thing, but I haven't seen it yet.  Followups to
sci.astro are probably best.]

Paula Cleggett-Haleim
Headquarters, Washington, D.C.                     April 19, 1989
(Phone:  [phone])

NASA ASTRONOMER DISCOVERS "NEAR-MISS" ASTEROID THAT PASSED EARTH

     An asteroid, a half-mile or more in diameter, passed within a
half million miles of the Earth - about twice the distance to the
moon - on March 23, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration
said today.

     "On the cosmic scale of things, that was a close call," said Dr.
Henry Holt.  Holt is a University of Arizona astronomer who
discovered the asteroid while working on a U.S. Geological Survey
(USGS) project, funded by NASA, to detect and track unknown asteroids
that cross the orbit of the Earth.  The project is headed by Dr.
Eugene Shoemaker, USGS.

     Dr. Bevan French, advanced program scientist for NASA's Solar
System Exploration Division, Washington, D.C., said that if the
asteroid had collided with the Earth, the impact would have been
equivalent to the explosion of 20,000 hydrogen bombs creating a
crater 5 to 10 miles in diameter - "enough to destroy a good-sized
city."  Landing in the ocean could have been worse since huge tidal
waves could have been created that would sweep over coastal regions,
he said.

     Although scientists do not know the asteroid's exact size, they
believe it to be over a half-mile in diameter.  A 6-mile- diameter
asteroid hit the Earth about 65 million years ago.  It is popularly
believed that this caused a global catastrophe that destroyed the
dinosaurs.

     The asteroid, currently designated 1989FC, came closer to Earth
than any recorded since Hermes in l937, according to Dr.  Brian
Marsden, director of the Minor Planets Center at the Smithsonian
Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, Mass.  Hermes passed the Earth
at approximately the same distance as 1989FC.

     The observatory, which is the international clearinghouse for
such discoveries, recorded the discoveries of about 1,800 asteroids
[This sounds far too high to me.  Maybe it includes recoveries of
previously known asteroids.  Or maybe I'm all wet.--SW]
in l988.  In the designation l989FC, l989 is the year of discovery; F
indicates discovery in the sixth half-month of the year (i.e. the end
of March); C indicates that the asteroid was the third discovered in
that period.  If the asteroid is successfully observed on two
subsequent approaches to Earth, Holt will be entitled to name it.

     Holt discovered the asteroid on a series of photographic plates
taken March 31 using the 18-inch Schmidt telescope at the California
Institute of Technology's Mount Palomar Observatory in California.

   The object - estimated to be travelling 46,000 miles an hour -
appeared as a trail of light in two photographs of the sky near the
constellation Coma Berenices.  They were taken an hour apart.  The
asteroid was detected when the two photographic plates were examained
under a stereo microscope.  "I knew it was travelling fast by the
elliptical spot that it created," said Holt.

     During the week following the discovery, subsequent observations
of l989FC were made by Holt and other astronomers to determine its
orbit.  Like the Earth, l989FC takes about a year to go around the
Sun.  But its orbit is highly elliptical and extends past the orbit
of Mars and inward past the orbit of Venus.  Asteroid 1989FC is now
moving rapidly away from the Earth and Sun.  It will return, crossing
the Earth's orbit again in early October 1989, this time at a greater
distance from Earth.

     Asteroid l989FC is only one of about 30 Earth-crossing asteroids
that have been discovered, although there may be many more.
Estimates range from several hundred to more than a thousand.  Holt
and Shoemaker regularly observe the sky during the "dark of the
moon," the period just before and just after the new moon.

--
Steve Willner            Phone [phone]         Bitnet:   willner@cfa
60 Garden St.            FTS:      830-7123           UUCP:   willner@cfa
Cambridge, MA 02138 USA                 Internet: [e-mail]

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V9 #392
*******************